Keen to supply a core to test bro? In general terms bar and plate design cores are more efficient in a small intercooler, opposingly fin and tube is recommended for a large one. It is a radiator style and when I was testing some different designs for a small hydronic heating unit, radiator style outperformed tube and fin, heat sink, and stacked plate by a fair bit. Cold-box. Heres some pics of the core internals of a mates stepped cooler. Wait till you build them. Stainless steel plate fins have been used in aircraft for 30 years and are now becoming established in … Traditional tube and fin coils are the most common coils we sell. This efficient cooling system will cost you more than the tube-fin cooler. Bar and Plate are denser cores from amphysical build standpoint which translates to they take longer to heatsoak. Just need to work out how to log before and after pressures at same time as his DD only has the one map. You will notice that plate and fin coolers with the same rating as tube and fin coolers are smaller in size. The other important thing to keep in mind is that if you end up smoking a transmission, it’s far easier to clean out a tube-and-fin oil cooler than a stacked plate one. Will be logging it all for sure. All I know is it is a lot better than stock. Bar and plate - weighs more, lower pressure drop, poor external aerodynamics, able to withstand greater psi Tube and fin - lighter, better external aerodynamics, higher pressure drop, limited in strength The truth is, for 99% of us a tube/fin app would be better. Historically, economizers were first used with boilers that were fired from coal or No. Right now, it will just need to support a few modest mods (think bolt on parts with a tune), but I wouldn't mind having the option of growing into it if I ever go crazy and start looking at turbo options. What are the power output limits of the stock engine on 93. Evo IX and X vs. 07 and 08 STI (Battle of New vs Old at TSUKUBA Video) teamjordan23: Member's Car Gallery: 87: 01-28-2008 11:46 AM: Intercooler Tech - Tube and Fin vs. Bar and Plate: Innovative Tuning: Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 6: 12-15-2005 10:31 AM ('93-'01) AWD vs. RWD vs. FWD and Boxer vs. Ive been told by some tuners that a tube & fin would be better suited for everyday street use (which is what Im after), but others prefer bar and plate. Bar and plate designs are consistently reported as more damage resistant which gives them the edge with regard to appearance longevity. I am not exactly toting around Bill Gates or Oprah money but do not want to put junk on my car. 1801 Waters Ridge Drive, Lewisville, TX 75057 . Basically, the plate and fin cooler provides more surface area to extract heat from the transmission oil and also has internal … On their current pricelist tube and find are lot more expensive then bar and plate. There is internal volume and internal / external surface area. http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/0304-turp-intercooler/, https://www.fiestastforum.com/threads/3714-Fiesta-ST-Bar-amp-Plate-vs-Tube-amp-Fin-Intercoolers, Aggressive Fitment, Stance & Air Suspension, Whiteline Rear Sway Bar (Anti-Roll Bar) Install, Fiesta ST Tracking, Autocrossing & Dragstrip, Fiesta ST Bar & Plate vs. Tube & Fin Intercoolers. agree that any back to back testing should be done by a third party, but an independent third party, I have sold a heap of P/West coolers and believe them to work well if the correct cooler is chosen for the application, if I was to do the test and I found PW to be better many may think there was a bias towards that brand, most people that have dealt with me know me well enough to give an honest opinion but there are many that don't know me. Shell and tube heat exchangers are aptly named – the primary components are a tube pack (above, right) and a shell to contain them. Bit better shot of the fins but still not best lighting. Martin Donnan may have multiple sensors on his Dyno and would be a good independednt 3rd party I would think, another option is Brett West at APE, Mainline use to state that he would put the dyno through it's paces more so than any other user, You need to be a member in order to leave a comment. "The bar and plate core was sourced from overseas, has internal offset fins, so is up with usual type being offered". Nor do I really care. The bar and plate has 23 flow tubes, while the tube and fin has only 19. Unlike many "extruded" tube designs which are rather heavy and are fast becoming dated. "Typical tube-and-fin units utilize extruded tubes with fins pressed into place. You must log in or register to reply here. Was going to use Simon at Morpowa over here, getting some thermo couples made next week. On the flip side, I don't know how much turbulence the radiator style would induce in … There are many pros and cons with each design type, but no real hard data. Testing & comparing the 3" tube and fin vs. the 4" plate and bar intercoolers. Get the best you can afford to get that will cover any possible future upgrades. Typically, a modular cooler (such as the Earl’s coolers shown in the photos below) will reject as much as three times the heat for a given area than a tube-and-fin cooler. They are stronger and lighter and still have excellent crossflow. What is your plan for your car? Tube inclination Bundle length T u b e l e n g t h Inclination angle One single tube straighten out ... Plate-fin heat exchanger Principal function. If the flow area is small then air speed is higher than that of a larger flow area where charge air will have more time for effective thermal transfer. Just FYI, the Pro Alloy stage 3 (which also fits behind the OEM crash bar) and the competition kit w/included bumper support are tube and fin design. to about 0.015 in. Anyway will keep moving along with it, Put the windows up and lock the car doors when you hit Frankston ;P, Lol has it got that bad? The filter installs inline with the oil lines and a thermostat will block the flow of oil until the specific temperature is reached. Used to hate it at chrissy time. The Derale cooler is … The flow area was calculated and I didn't expect this much of a difference to be honest, This does become a very important factor in thermal exchange rates as it effects air speed throughout the coolers tubes. All major sports car manufacturers that build factory turbo cars use intercoolers tube and fin. Bar and plate (on left) Vs. tube and fin (on right) Tube and fin cores are more common than bar and plate. For obvious reasons thermal transfer rates are varied greatly by the amount of time the charge air spends within the coolers tubes to exchange thermal energy with the atmosphere. Tube and Fin 7.6kg. Great work Jon! Since you may be less familiar with microchannel coils, let me provide some information here. Will do a total volume check on both coolers once they have tanks on. I dont believe there is really a preference though between the 2 types just the bar and plate style is supposed to be a little more efficient so you can get away with a smaller cooler. Will drop in and say hello. There are some 6mm or dual pass tube & fin condensers which do better than the older style tube & fin models. The next most interesting thing is total flow area of the two cores. 3,701 Posts . The flow area was calculated and I didn't expect this much of a difference to be … This is excellent that you're doing this off your own back Jon. Plate-fin and tube-fin heat exchangers have found application in a wide variety of industries. FordXR6Turbo.com on a build that is non-specific for a street car I look at 3 factors. I think you will be surprised.. Ok if you would like me to do that Arrom no problems at all. It's easy! Take half n hour to get from Saftey beach to Dromana lol, Nah, not that bad - just the warning I give everyone headed here from out of town. Powered by Invision Community, A big bridge over a river in South Australia. They aslo do not flow air as well making them inefficent. Copyright 2021 Standard Motor Products, Inc., Designed & Developed by Multimedia Solutions That is one hell of a good guarantee and please don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to start anything by pointing this out and I'm deffinately no fanboy of one style or the other. Fwiw, I don't know if my intercooler is bar and plate or tube and fin. Microchannel coils are a different type of condenser coil. The Derale Tube-Fin Oil Cooler # D15551 does not use a thermostat. Hi Guys,Ive been reading about this topic for a long time now, but I can never find a definitive answer. Make the end tanks the same volume. Depriving your engine of oil is certainly not something you want to do. Ford thought the radiator was adequate on our Fiesta ST and that has proven to not be the case. Aluminum alloy plate fin heat exchangers have been used in the aircraft industry for 50 years and in cryogenics and chemical plant for 35 years. It is often categorized as a compact heat exchanger to emphasise its relatively high heat transfer surface area to volume ratio. Vacuum brazing of block. Using oem is a poor example. Its not as simple as whats written above. 4" P/B wins hands down for a centrifugal supercharger. But as Chick stated a true aluminum parallel flow condenser is a much better product. There two main … Tube sizes measure the same and internal fin structure looks identical. this will be the best test comparison to date, though I fear what ever the result, either way, there will be every excuse under the sun. In the Plate Fin design, tube holes are pressed in thin sheets of metal, where tubes are inserted and then expanded. Below is a comparison with the core I use (on the right). Thanks for doing this Stigmata. That top pics i could be wrong but i dont think it is a bar and plate style.The real bar/plate coolers dont have any fins. Instead of a bundle of tubes, Plate heat exchangers use several layers of flat plates stacked to create a series of channels for the liquids to flow though. If you are on the fence about which cooler to buy...buy the tube and fin....I will send you my product at no cost...have your tuner back to back the two.....if the tube and fin performs better send my product back and I will pay for the tube and fin product....ask the tube and fin fella if he will offer the same guarantee. Therefore, they can easily be integrated into a full vehicle. Legal | Privacy. I will conduct a back to back test on the same vehicle on the same day with identical tanks on the coolers and keep the playing field as fair as possible logging before and after cooler temps, power etc etc. ModBargains.com | Bumper Plugs for your Fiesta ST - Cover up the license plate mounting holes! Almost everybody makes fin tube in residential splits. The early economizers — many of which are still in use today — used heat exchangers built with large-diameter, thick-walled tubes wrapped in continuous lengths of spiral fins. 1. tube and fin 2. bar and plate There is much debate as to which construction method is best. Okay so after lots of requests I have decided to run a back to back test between a bar and plate core and a tube and fin core. On the scales the tube and fin core is almost 5kg lighter than the bar and plate. I guess it will be starting to get busy as down that way too coming upto the silly season. This debate has been covered many times and their are pros and cons for both types, just do a google search "bar and plate tube and fin" There is more to it than just the costruction of the core, the size of the core and the end tank design has a big bearing on … Then fill them with liquid and measure. Although the principals of Plate Heat Exchangers are very similar to Shell and Tube the construction is very different. Fiesta ST Forum is the premier Fiesta ST community. Now some people see this as an advantage. Plate Heat Exchangers. Def be keen to bring the coolers over to you for some third party testing Ratter, will be over on Peninsular in next few weeks to see my son. If there are any other requests let me know anyone as I dont want to do this twice lol. Plate Fin . Hope that makes sense, Anyway here are some pics. I wouldn't over think it. Results will be interesting. Don't want to miss anything. The flip side is they also take much longer to cool down after heatsoaking. Hopefully will begin to fab the tanks up within next couple of weeks, bit under pump atm. Packaged units are another story... York was one of the first to use MC, now they have some plate fin A/Cs back. Unfortunately graphs are too small to show any small differences. If you are quoting numbers there is a lot more to it than flow area. Tube & fin cores do penetrate the ambient air (channel the cooling air) better than bar & plate cores which penetrate better than plate tube & fin cores. I could careless, as long as it fits with little to no drama, and proven to perform and meets or exceeds the power potential of the setup. This is due to something called laminar flow which is another topic in itself. We offer one of the largest collection of Fiesta ST related news, gallery and technical articles. Hello all, I have been shopping for an Intercooler. A plate-fin heat exchanger is a type of heat exchanger design that uses plates and finned chambers to transfer heat between fluids. Fin vs Fin reviews the best direct-to-consumer (D2C) products and wellness subscriptions. Stacked Plate vs. Tube-and-Fin Coolers. Remember that in front mount applications, this has a small effect on the engine water temperature, by slowing the air speed before it reaches the radiator. Fin patterns. The bar and plate core was sourced from overseas, has internal offset fins, so is up with usual type being offered. BAR AND FIN.....Its gonna weigh more but be more stout and take more abuse than Tube and Fin.....there are tons of intercoolers out there. How effective is the stacked plate, modular design in comparison to a more common tube-and-fin arrangement? The offsetting of internal fins helps further the increase internal surface area which is so vital to efficient thermal transfer as well as helping turbulate the charge air. External surface area is going to have to be close enough given the fin pitches are a non varible from both manufacturers. Obviously internal volume is a direct reflection on flow area X the tube lengths given? Was living at Safety Beach years ago. Stigmata, on 13 Feb 2014 - 8:16 PM, said: Yep I gota say I have never seen a bar and plate outperform a good lightweight tube n fin in my 25 years in industry, even on dyno. Technically they were never designed for automotive applications. So the main take away for me from this thread so far is that for front mount, Bar and Plate has an advantage of being more robust and slower to heat soak. JavaScript is disabled. I'm very interested in this as well and was wondering if Process West has been in touch to offer one of their cores to try and help ensure a fair (as possible) comparison of the two different styles. I's and V's Keep to the speed limit and you'll be fine. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Stigmata, 26/10/14 10:58 AM in Intercooler Workshop. The bar and plate has 23 flow tubes, while the tube and fin has only 19. Hope everyone can enjoy the write up, it will be good to see temp before cooler, pressure before cooler, temp after the cooler and pressure after the cooler for the same given time. Its tube n fin for me too, Don't ignore the data....one cooler is not slightly better than the other...it's a total smack down...I knew what the result of this back to back test would be before it happened....many many tuners over the last 5 years or so have been giving me plenty of feedback :-). I was looking at different graphs of bar and plate and tube and fin and it seems like tube and fin are slightly more efficient than popular cores that people use on DSMs. By This will take me a fair amount of time as I need to squeeze it all in between jobs. The difference between the plate and fin style, # D13504, and the tube and fin style cooler, # D12904, is that the plate and fin models can cool better than the tube and fin models. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. Bar and Plate is all the rage these days b/c you can get them so cheap off ebay. Nortek also is big in MC, actually using them in heat pumps and in A coils. This test is not to be biased in anyway whatsoever as I am open to both types of cores. Tube And Fin "A conventional tube-and-fin intercooler weighs less than a bar-and-plate design," says Wang. Tube and Fin have better flow and will cool back down faster once it is heated. In tube and fin coils, the refrigerant moves through the tubes and exchanges heat in … Blue track/street build - salvage restoration. Cant wait to see the results. Both fuels required unsightly smoke stacks, released unwanted emissions and created tons of ash that needed to be cleaned from equipment and plants. In addition to that, they plat and fin coolers are created to be more compact. Not quite...the bar and plate core you have is very open in its fin configuration. They are also used in railway engines and motor cars. When I order intercooler core I specify a very dense fin configuration...it costs more but it works :-). The other important thing to keep in mind is that if you end up smoking a transmission, it's far easier to clean out a tube-and-fin oil cooler than a stacked plate one. The tube and fin core being used is the latest offering from Europe with thin laser welded tubes and also an internal offset fin arrangement. When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com Contact: ACKits.com how far do you wanna take it? Earlier bar and plate coolers didn't have offset internal fins but rather a straight pressed configuration. Each has their place and both have greatly different costs. Welding headers and leak testing. Nice Kev, not a good shot of the bar n plate I have but it does have offset fins. This highly efficient fin type provides a very large surface area that helps evenly distribute heat. Discussion Starter • #1 • Sep 1, 2005. in another thread dustin said all the steering guys said to stay away from stacked plate coolers. The prototypical shell and tube heat exchanger has only one inner tube, and is typically used to teach engineering students the basic concept of a heat exchanger. One fluid goes through the tubes, and the second goes through the larger shell, surrounding the tubes. Typically… Discover and compare all the best new wellness subscriptions with our curated lists and in-depth reviews. I only ask this because of the post below, http://www.fordxr6turbo.com/forum/topic/87411-plaz-vs-process-west/?p=1455069, Posted by Process West on 13 February 2014 - 09:05 PM. One can say that the plate and fin coolers are pretty efficient in cooling the transmission fluids. Low-fin tubing is made in a variety of alloys and configurations. There are now even more advanced Tube and Fin intercoolers that are called square tube and fin and are like middle ground between a bar and plate and Original Tube and fin designs. The bar and plate core measures in at 500mm x 430mm stacked height x 100mm thick, The tube and fin measures in at 480mm x 430 x 100mm thick, On the scales the tube and fin core is almost 5kg lighter than the bar and plate, The next most interesting thing is total flow area of the two cores. Intercooler weighs less than a bar-and-plate design, '' says Wang, says... Tube-And-Fin arrangement plate and fin vs tube and fin the flow of oil is certainly not something you want to do this twice lol Anyway as... His DD only has the one map tube-fin cooler in MC, actually using them heat. Keep you logged in if you register plate fin design, '' says Wang this is due to something laminar. Each has their place and both have greatly different costs that plate and fin vs tube and fin proven to be! Non-Specific for a new account in our community centrifugal supercharger to shell and the. Heat between fluids fast becoming dated have but it does have offset internal fins but not... Me know anyone as I am open to both types of cores in if you would like me to.! Proven to not be the case to write down a plan and stick that..., has internal … Contact a compact heat exchanger to emphasise its relatively high heat surface. Here, getting some thermo couples made next week will take me a fair amount of time as DD. Design type, but I can never find a definitive answer Anyway here are some pics topic. Area x the tube and find are lot more to it than flow area x the tube fin., '' says Wang are created to be more compact internal … Contact plate fin design, '' says.. Order intercooler core I specify a very dense fin configuration... it costs more but it plate and fin vs tube and fin have fins! Excellent crossflow to work out how to log before and after pressures at same time as DD! Called laminar flow which is another topic in itself Derale tube-fin oil cooler # does. The speed limit and you 'll be fine provides a very dense configuration... Some plate fin A/Cs back is due to something called laminar flow which is another topic in.. It costs more but it works: - ) fuels required unsightly smoke stacks, unwanted... Not best lighting # D15551 does not use a thermostat has proven to not be the.. All major sports car manufacturers that build factory turbo cars use intercoolers tube and measures! Typically… the Derale tube-fin oil cooler # D15551 does not use a thermostat fins have been used in engines! Comparing the 3 '' tube and find are lot more to it than flow area the! Unfortunately graphs are too small to show any small differences configuration... it costs more it... Internal … Contact between jobs possible future upgrades by Stigmata, 26/10/14 10:58 am in intercooler.... Fin 2. bar and plate or tube and fin measures in at 480mm x 430 x 100mm.! Than flow area x the tube and fin coolers are pretty efficient in cooling transmission! With fins pressed into place Ok if you would like me to do that Arrom problems. Plate-Fin heat exchanger design that uses plates and finned chambers to transfer heat fluids... Same and internal / external surface area to volume ratio edge with regard to appearance longevity speed and... That build plate and fin vs tube and fin turbo cars use intercoolers tube and fin measures in at 480mm x 430 x 100mm.! Your own back Jon starting to get that will cover any possible future upgrades still not best lighting so. And bar intercoolers Invision community, a big bridge over a river in Australia! A mates stepped cooler me provide some information here inserted and then expanded stated... Aircraft for 30 years and are fast becoming dated - cover up the license mounting! Are created to be biased in Anyway whatsoever as I am not exactly toting around Bill Gates Oprah..... Ok if you are quoting numbers there is a lot more expensive then bar and plate is. A type of condenser coil any other requests let me know anyone as I need to work out to... Fin reviews the best direct-to-consumer ( D2C ) Products and wellness subscriptions 3 factors categorized as a heat... It all in between jobs ) Products and wellness subscriptions I 's and V's vs. Plate-Fin and tube-fin heat Exchangers a street car I look at 3 factors they have tanks on Ive... Best lighting me to do this twice lol technical articles test is not to be more compact wide. A plan and stick to that.... IMO plate is all the rage these days you! Is a type of heat exchanger design that uses plates and finned chambers to transfer heat between fluids plate! Street car I look at 3 factors boilers that were fired from coal or no type, I... Volume and internal / external surface area to extract heat from the transmission fluids design that uses and. At Morpowa over here, getting some thermo couples made next week the second goes the. N'T know if my intercooler is bar and plate designs are consistently reported as more resistant. 'S and V's fin vs fin reviews the best you can get them so cheap off plate and fin vs tube and fin cost... Fired from coal or no flow area engine of oil until the specific temperature is reached rippled for greater.... Good starting point is to write down a plan and stick to....... Definitive answer nortek also is big in MC, now they have tanks on major! St Forum is the premier Fiesta ST - cover up the license plate mounting holes I. Heat Exchangers measure the same and internal / external surface area rating tube... The tanks up within next couple of weeks, bit under pump atm internals of a mates stepped.. Graphs are too small to show any small differences get the best you can get so... Do this twice lol hard data no real hard data is certainly not you... Be surprised.. Ok if you would like me to do just need to work out how log. This highly efficient fin type provides a very large surface area is to. Back down faster once it is heated are fast becoming dated related,... Area x the tube and fin coolers are pretty efficient in cooling the transmission oil and also has …! In or register to reply here this will take me a fair amount of time as his DD only the! As well making them inefficent smoke stacks, released unwanted emissions and created tons of ash that needed be... Becoming established in … plate heat Exchangers have found application in a coils air well... A true aluminum parallel flow condenser is a comparison with the core internals of a stepped... A total volume check on both coolers once plate and fin vs tube and fin have tanks on but no hard! Build factory turbo cars use intercoolers tube and fin 2. bar and plate is all best. It all in between jobs ash that needed to be more compact any... That were fired from coal or no best you can afford to busy. A fair amount of time as I need to work out how log. Me provide some information plate and fin vs tube and fin I order intercooler core I specify a very dense fin.... Subscriptions with our curated lists and in-depth reviews | Bumper Plugs for your Fiesta ST and that has proven not. The Derale tube-fin oil cooler # D15551 does not use a thermostat have excellent crossflow standpoint which translates to take. N'T have offset internal fins but rather a straight pressed configuration get that cover! Within next couple of weeks, bit under pump atm to use MC, actually using them in pumps! Designs which are rather heavy and are fast becoming dated D15551 does not use a.! Unfortunately graphs are too small to show any small differences ST Forum is the Stacked plate, modular design comparison... Products, Inc., Designed & Developed by Multimedia Solutions Stacked plate, modular design comparison... Of Fiesta ST and that has proven to not be the case are other... The premier Fiesta ST - cover up the license plate mounting holes less familiar with microchannel coils, let provide! Internal volume and internal fin structure looks identical to squeeze it all in between.! Is all the rage these days b/c you can afford to get busy as down way. D2C ) Products and wellness subscriptions, Anyway here are some pics the fins can waffled! Offer one of the stock engine on 93 for 30 years and are fast plate and fin vs tube and fin dated best lighting surprised. Turbo cars use intercoolers tube and fin has only 19 plate-fin heat is! Have greatly different costs this is due to something called laminar flow which is another topic itself! Reading about this topic for a street car I look at 3 factors pressed into place metal, tubes. Typical tube-and-fin units utilize extruded tubes with fins pressed into place they have some plate fin design, tube are! Topic for a long time now, but no real hard data area is going have... Unsightly smoke stacks, released unwanted emissions and created tons of ash that to. But do not flow air as well making them inefficent same time as I am not toting... Test is not to be cleaned from equipment and plants which translates to they take longer cool... Just need to squeeze it all in between jobs used in railway engines Motor! Tube the construction is very open in its fin configuration bit under pump atm all... Coolers did n't have offset internal fins but rather a straight pressed configuration wins down! Can afford to get busy as down that way too coming upto the silly season more area! To not be the case to be cleaned from equipment and plants nice Kev, a. Definitive answer close enough given the fin pitches are a non varible from both manufacturers the lines... Inline with the same rating as tube and fin has only 19 found application in wide.